Is this for real???

[Whizzer]

https://twitter.com/Indy_athletics/stat ... 7844246528

Indy Athletics on Twitter has a picture of Alex Hart holding a 145# State Champion plaque. Someone said that the WVSSAC fixed it. How has this not been made public? Can someone explain.

What happened? Was the other kid stripped? Or, both get a trophy? Does this mean Co-Champions? My head is spinning!

[Truesouthfaninhunt]

Better hire a “ special counsel” to get to the bottom of this! Or maybe “ bearhugger” will come to the rescue as he so often does!

[crochog93]

If i had to take a guess i would say that Indy made a replica of the wvssac 145 lb championship plaque and is ceremonially giving this to mr hart.
no way the wvssac would reverse the decision....
Although, myself, and everybody else knows that hart won the match.

[WrestlingFan1]

If i had to take a guess i would say that Indy made a replica of the wvssac 145 lb championship plaque and is ceremonially giving this to mr hart.
no way the wvssac would reverse the decision....
Although, myself, and everybody else knows that hart won the match.

Watch yourself, or they'll take your post down like they did mine. I didn't realize that you weren't able to state your option on these forums.
Also, I heard the plaque was indeed sent by the WVSSAC.

[mscoach90]

STOP !!!

[DongerWrestle]

Huh? Two champions in one weight class? Interested to know the details. Can someone explain?

[WrestlingFan1]

Huh? Two champions in one weight class? Interested to know the details. Can someone explain?

Short version, Hart won, but all involved won't admit to their mistake.

[Bearhugger]

Huh? Two champions in one weight class? Interested to know the details. Can someone explain?

Short version, Hart won, but all involved won't admit to their mistake.

Acknowledging the mistake would get everybody on the road to restoring faith and credibility.

[Truesouthfaninhunt]

Huh? Two champions in one weight class? Interested to know the details. Can someone explain?

Short version, Hart won, but all involved won't admit to their mistake.

Acknowledging the mistake would get everybody on the road to restoring faith and credibility.

Words in which to pattern one's life! Thanks.

[Whizzer]

Sooo, is it real? Inquiring minds want to know. Someone knows, let’s hear it.

[Matmanwv]

So here’s the thing if wvssac awards him the championship they just opened the door for instant replay even though rules state the officials can’t look at video. Right or wrong when the match was over he did not win. Now anytime a wrestler can show video of a missed or bad call and can dispute the decision that cost them the match. People will wrestle differently based on the score so if the other kid was ahead he would wrestle more defensive as if he was behind he would probably be more aggressive so many ways the outcome could have changed.

[mattman]

So here’s the thing if wvssac awards him the championship they just opened the door for instant replay even though rules state the officials can’t look at video. Right or wrong when the match was over he did not win. Now anytime a wrestler can show video of a missed or bad call and can dispute the decision that cost them the match. People will wrestle differently based on the score so if the other kid was ahead he would wrestle more defensive as if he was behind he would probably be more aggressive so many ways the outcome could have changed.

Why would you argue a point when everyone in the arena knows the score was 6-5 Hart? Shouldnt have been an overtime to begin with. Alex earned the win and wvssac gave him what was his. As far as the instant replay goes, im all for it. Congratulations to Alex and wvssac on fixing their mistake!

[WrestlingFan1]

For the life of me I can't understand why the Winfield contingency wants to lay claim to a title that they clearly didn't win. Someone should have stepped up.

[Matmanwv]

So here’s the thing if wvssac awards him the championship they just opened the door for instant replay even though rules state the officials can’t look at video. Right or wrong when the match was over he did not win. Now anytime a wrestler can show video of a missed or bad call and can dispute the decision that cost them the match. People will wrestle differently based on the score so if the other kid was ahead he would wrestle more defensive as if he was behind he would probably be more aggressive so many ways the outcome could have changed.

Why would you argue a point when everyone in the arena knows the score was 6-5 Hart? Shouldnt have been an overtime to begin with. Alex earned the win and wvssac gave him what was his. As far as the instant replay goes, im all for it. Congratulations to Alex and wvssac on fixing their mistake!

First off I do not have any affiliation with either team involved.
I don’t disagree that the final score on the board was wrong. The point I was stating is if it was right on the scoreboard both wrestlers would have wrestled differently. One could also argue a couple other times when points could/should have been awarded. The rules state no replay can be used and if you have a dispute then the wrestler is not to leave the mat until a final decision is reached. I know that’s not the exact wording but you don’t leave the mat. As for replay it can be very beneficial if the rules would allow it. Maybe this match will get the rules changed.

[Bunk]

Matmanwv, to your point about wrestling differently based on the score, which is an argument I've heard several times in regard to this subject- the match going to OT in the first place was due to a (questionable) stalling call with 2 seconds left that Winfield had no way to know he was going to get. Winfield needed a TD to know he was going to win at that point regardless, which he did not get. A stalling point fell from the heavens at the last moment and threw a wrench in the gears of the entire match as well as the integrity of the WVSSAC and state finals, so- although scores might affect the way someone wrestles- in this case it would have been inconsequential, no matter how you cut it- wether it be a stall call with 2 seconds remaining or the phantom point earlier in the match, the referee 100% determined/altered the outcome of the match. Alex Hart is a true champion and a great kid. No matter where this award came from, I'm glad to see him get the recognition he deserves.

[guard0544]

Matmanwv, to your point about wrestling differently based on the score, which is an argument I've heard several times in regard to this subject- the match going to OT in the first place was due to a (questionable) stalling call with 2 seconds left that Winfield had no way to know he was going to get. Winfield needed a TD to know he was going to win at that point regardless, which he did not get. A stalling point fell from the heavens at the last moment and threw a wrench in the gears of the entire match as well as the integrity of the WVSSAC and state finals, so- although scores might affect the way someone wrestles- in this case it would have been inconsequential, no matter how you cut it- wether it be a stall call with 2 seconds remaining or the phantom point earlier in the match, the referee 100% determined/altered the outcome of the match. Alex Hart is a true champion and a great kid. No matter where this award came from, I'm glad to see him get the recognition he deserves.

You are ignoring that almost the entire third period was wrestled with the Winfield boy believing he was only down by two points. It’s fair and likely accurate to say someone would be more aggressive if they thought they were down more than a single takedown.

[Truesouthfaninhunt]

Since now seemingly both kids have a plaque then whats with all the bickering?

[Bunk]

Guard, it still doesn't hold weight for me. Wether he was down by 1 or down by 2, if a miraculous stall call with 2 seconds on the clock didn't send it to OT he was losing. Period. End of story. There is absolutely, positively, beyond a shadow of a doubt- no logical way Winfield thought they were in position to win with 10 seconds left, even with that extra point- a leg attack, nor a throw or any other type scoring maneuver was attempted at the end of the match. Defeat was more or less a given at that point. Alex had the lead with only a few seconds left at of the end of regulation and it would be absurd to *assume* that a stall call would fall from the sky if you were Winfield- neither wrestler was ever deliberately avoiding the action. The match was effectively over until the official decided to insert himself into the outcome at the end. The case for that idea that Ward was just a calculated match manager who knew he could get a stall call with next to no time left does not hold water for me. He didn't have more points with 10 seconds left, and he was attempting no maneuvers that were likely to result in an offensive score during that time. Period. The OT was artificial by virtue of the stall call if it weren't already artificial based on the incorrect score. I refuse to buy that argument. I think it is a cop out, and it enables people to make excuses for a situation that all who witnessed know the true nature of.

[guard0544]

Guard, it still doesn't hold weight for me. Wether he was down by 1 or down by 2, if a miraculous stall call with 2 seconds on the clock didn't send it to OT he was losing. Period. End of story. There is absolutely, positively, beyond a shadow of a doubt- no logical way Winfield thought they were in position to win with 10 seconds left, even with that extra point- a leg attack, nor a throw or any other type scoring maneuver was attempted at the end of the match. Defeat was more or less a given at that point. Alex had the lead with only a few seconds left at of the end of regulation and it would be absurd to *assume* that a stall call would fall from the sky if you were Winfield- neither wrestler was ever deliberately avoiding the action. The match was effectively over until the official decided to insert himself into the outcome at the end. The case for that idea that Ward was just a calculated match manager who knew he could get a stall call with next to no time left does not hold water for me. He didn't have more points with 10 seconds left, and he was attempting no maneuvers that were likely to result in an offensive score during that time. Period. The OT was artificial by virtue of the stall call if it weren't already artificial based on the incorrect score. I refuse to buy that argument. I think it is a cop out, and it enables people to make excuses for a situation that all who witnessed know the true nature of.

Again, I was not commenting on the last 10 seconds of the match. I was commenting on the other 1:50 seconds of the third period. Most of that period they were neutral and the Winfield wrestler believing a single takedown would tie up the match. I was only pointing out, which seems obvious to me, that someone would likely be more aggressive if they knew they needed something more than a single takedown to tie up the match. Its unfair to Hart the score was messed up. But its also unfair to the Winfield wrestler to suggest he would not have wrestled more aggressively from the neutral position throughout the third period if he knew he needed 3 points to tie it up.

[Bunk]

That's the thing though- Hart had a 2 point lead AFTER the scoring error. Then he was taken down. Now he has a 0 point lead on the board,. Both wrestlers are aware the score on the clock is 5-5 well into the third. Hart then escapes. Now the score on the clock is 6-5 Hart in the neutral position. The only way a wrestler can be sure to score any amount of points in the neutral position is by getting a takedown. Once Alex scored an escape to make it 6-5 and both wrestlers were neutral, Ward was at a deficit- and the only way for him to score was a TD- no matter what. He was at a deficit- if the score on the clock was correct, a TD wins it, if the true score were reflected, a TD forces OT. Regardless, Ward knows he needs a TD at the end and he doesn't get it. Thats what makes the last second stall call I've been droning on about that much worse. A takedown was assumed to be necessary no matter what, and as such match management was not a factor- because either Ward was down by 1 or down by 2 after Alex's last score and therefore would have needed a takedown regardless of what he thought the score was in order to be in the match- thus invalidating the position that match management would have been a factor in this situation. Heart was the entire match until the 5:58 mark, besides a brief (and incorrect) 5-5 tie on the scoreboard in the mid 3rd period. This means his strategy wouldn't have needed to change. It was a game of catch-up the whole match through. The ref did everything he could to take it out of the wrestlers hands and displayed some of the wost officiating I've seen in all my years around the sport.

[guard0544]

That's the thing though- Hart had a 2 point lead AFTER the scoring error. Then he was taken down. Now he has a 0 point lead on the board,. Both wrestlers are aware the score on the clock is 5-5 well into the third. Hart then escapes. Now the score on the clock is 6-5 Hart in the neutral position. The only way a wrestler can be sure to score any amount of points in the neutral position is by getting a takedown. Once Alex scored an escape to make it 6-5 and both wrestlers were neutral, Ward was at a deficit- and the only way for him to score was a TD- no matter what. He was at a deficit- if the score on the clock was correct, a TD wins it, if the true score were reflected, a TD forces OT. Regardless, Ward knows he needs a TD at the end and he doesn't get it. Thats what makes the last second stall call I've been droning on about that much worse. A takedown was assumed to be necessary no matter what, and as such match management was not a factor- because either Ward was down by 1 or down by 2 after Alex's last score and therefore would have needed a takedown regardless of what he thought the score was in order to be in 5 he match- thus invalidating the position that match management would have been a factor in this situation. He was the entire match until the 5:58 mark, besides a brief (and incorrect) 5-5 tie on the scoreboard in the mid 3Rd period. This means his strategy wouldn't have needed to change. It was a game of catch-up the whole match through. The ref did everything he could to take it out of the wrestlers hands and displayed some of the wost officiating I've seen in all my years around the sport.

It’s still the same. You keep wanting to focus on the last ten seconds of the match. But it’s silly to act like a wrestler who thinks he is down by 3 points most of the third period would not have been more aggressive than a wrestler who thinks he only needs a takedown to tie it up.

[WrestlingFan1]

Two words sum up this situation; Jeremy Callen, below is a quote from one of the Indy coaches on another post from this forum:

Jeremy Callen laughed in my brother's face, while other officials around him including the head official for the match made sarcastic comments to him, when he insisted that his protest be properly heard after the 160-pound match. When Jeremy Tincher from Greenbrier West tried to intervene, his response was "Why do you care? It's not your kid."

[Bunk]

Your math is simply wrong. Even assuming the score on the clock was correct the entire time, the gameplan would not have been different. Saying otherwise is making an excuse that undermines the hard fought match that both of those guys wrestled.

[guard0544]

Your math is simply wrong. Even assuming the score on the clock was correct the entire time, the gameplan would not have been different. Saying otherwise is making an excuse that undermines the hard fought match that both of those guys wrestled.

I thought the scoreboard showed Winfield was down by 3 beginning the third period. He scored and escape making it show him down by 2. He scored a takedown making it tied. Hart scored and escape making it show him up by 1 point. Then there was the stalling call tying it up for OT.

I'm just going off memory...so please correct me where I am mistaken. I do not see how my comment in anyway "undermines the hard fought match that both of those guys wrestled." That comment is silly.

Thanks

[Bunk]

I'm saying the math is incorrect because whether he was down by 1, or he was down by 2- a TD was assumed to be necessary from a strategy standpoint. There's no way strategy can account for a stall call with that little time left. Counting on a judgment call isn't a strategy- it's wishful thinking, whether or not the score was correct, it would not change the fact that if you're in the kids corner coaching him you're screaming at him to take shots and attempt a TD- that's not what happened. Somehow- without even taking a shot, a single push-out elicited a call that changed the outcome- but no one in their right mind is going to hinge the outcome of that match on a hopeful stall call, especially against an active opponent. Therefore the strategy- whether at a one point deficit, or a two point deficit is to score a takedown. It's the only sure-fire way to affect the outcome of the match if you're Ward. This is as obvious as I can possibly put it, at this point I've laid out all of the logic and facts I can muster about the context of this match- if you're unpersuaded by my position we'll just have to agree to disagree.
It undermines the effort of both competitors to insinuate that one of them was just hanging back and the other was playing right into his scheme- if you saw the match it was clear both wrestlers were only concerned about scoring the next point the entire time. It's kind of how a wrestling match works- they don't need us to make excuses for them and try to veil these excuses as clever strategy. Watch the match again and tell me who you thought was controlling most of the action. I believe a majority of spectators would come to a similar conclusion as myself. I don't see a coherent train of logic to justify the notion that the mishap skewed the 3rd round in favor of Heart.

Nonetheless- I've said my peace. If you agree, great. If not, great. Have a nice day and run the logistics a few more times and see if you don't come around. Have a good one all!

Bunk, signing off.

[WrestlingFan1]

Call the fall, call the stall, horrible officiating is bad for us all.

[Truesouthfaninhunt]

“ don't let yesterday take up too much of today”

[guard0544]

I'm saying the math is incorrect because whether he was down by 1, or he was down by 2- a TD was assumed to be necessary from a strategy standpoint. There's no way strategy can account for a stall call with that little time left. Counting on a judgment call isn't a strategy- it's wishful thinking, whether or not the score was correct, it would not change the fact that if you're in the kids corner coaching him you're screaming at him to take shots and attempt a TD- that's not what happened. Somehow- without even taking a shot, a single push-out elicited a call that changed the outcome- but no one in their right mind is going to hinge the outcome of that match on a hopeful stall call, especially against an active opponent. Therefore the strategy- whether at a one point deficit, or a two point deficit is to score a takedown. It's the only sure-fire way to affect the outcome of the match if you're Ward. This is as obvious as I can possibly put it, at this point I've laid out all of the logic and facts I can muster about the context of this match- if you're unpersuaded by my position we'll just have to agree to disagree.
It undermines the effort of both competitors to insinuate that one of them was just hanging back and the other was playing right into his scheme- if you saw the match it was clear both wrestlers were only concerned about scoring the next point the entire time. It's kind of how a wrestling match works- they don't need us to make excuses for them and try to veil these excuses as clever strategy. Watch the match again and tell me who you thought was controlling most of the action. I believe a majority of spectators would come to a similar conclusion as myself. I don't see a coherent train of logic to justify the notion that the mishap skewed the 3rd round in favor of Heart.

Nonetheless- I've said my peace. If you agree, great. If not, great. Have a nice day and run the logistics a few more times and see if you don't come around. Have a good one all!

Bunk, signing off.

Again....you keep focusing on the last ten seconds of the match and saying someone wouldn’t wrestle different if down by 1 or down by 2 with ten seconds remaining. At this point you are being willfully blind to the point I was making. For the fourth time, I was speaking about the other 1:50 of the third period. A wrestler believing a single takedown will tie the match and knowing he has nearly a full period to get the takedown, may not go as aggressively as a wrestler who knows he needs 3 points to tie. It’s not complicated.

[Diamond]

What is the record book going to say? As of now WVMat homepage has Jamie Ward is the 145 lb AA/A Champion. I mean no disrespect but is this just the commission giving Hart a plaque to appease everyone complaining? What is the official call? Was the plaque in the photo awarded by the commission? This all needs to be ironed out and put to bed. As it stands WV Highschool wrestling is a joke and the commission and some of these holier than thou referees are to blame. It’s embarrassing to be truthful.

[potomac highlander]

enough time has past. I am sure someone knows if the state has reversed the 145 champion or awarded a co-championship. facts please.