Regions vs. Seeding

[bsouth332003]

I know we go over this every year, but when do we get to the point where we seed the top 16 wrestlers for a state wrestling tournament instead of taking 4 from each region. I did a little analysis of each weight class in each region based upon the top 10 rankings from each weight class that came out today. Some weight Classes are pretty even but if you look at 132, 145, 152, 160, 170, 182, 195, 220 and 285 there are some unfair regions. Region 3 145 has 0 kids ranked whereas Region 1 is loaded. 220 and 152 Region 1 has four of the top kids in each weight class where the champ in other regions will be ranked lower than 4th place. Finally Region 3 285 will be keeping a ranked wrestler home which could possibly be the worst scenario.

Wt Class Region 1 Region 2 Region 3 Region 4
106 Jared Donahue-2 Camerin Rawlings-8 Philip Sharp-3 Logan Grass-1
Hunter Cline-5 Luke Wilson-9 Shane Scarbo-7 Caleb Leslie-4
Josh Sinclair-10 Levi Mccormick-6

113 Austin Spears-3 Brandon Tenney-1 Jasiel Kinder-5 Will Jeffers-9
Logan Ball-4 Ty Reynolds-2 Zach McCarthy-6 Logan Adkins-10
PJ Dolan-8 Sam Moore-7

120 Dallas Baciak-2 Bradley Derito-3 David Pancake-5 Jordan Allen-1
Colten Nangle-4 Joey Shreves-6 Leland Swafford-9 Micah Crewdson-7
Chris Cochran-8
Austin Wamsley-10

126 Austin Harris-6 Tyler Sigler-2 Lucas Simpkins-1 Guy Fisher-3
Mike Jones-10 Demetrius Jalepes-7 Dustin Young-9 Adam Whitmore-4
Tyler Thomas-8 Jonathan Spence-5

132 Isaiah Hood-2 Todd Williams-6 Corey Shamblin-9 Bryce Humphreys-1
TJ Lambiotte-5 Caleb Howell-10 John Raike-3
Nick Johnson-7 Chase Childers-4
Kendall Obregon-8

138 Dylan Hall-4 Kody Kernan-1 Jensen Lorea-3 Bobby Mitchell-5
Cody Hamlin-6 Dakota Linger-2 John Duncan-8 Trey Harman-9
Tyler Windland-7 Tyler Gilger-10

145 Dylan Richards-1 Jared Jones-2 Michael Milam-3
Tyler Cottrell-5 Matt Fair-6 Zach Gwinn-4
Hunter Delong-7 Paden Christian-9
Dylan Taylor-8 Evan Fairchild-10

152 Johnny Davis-1 Chance Stalnaker-9 Jake Martin-3 Austin Rutter-8
Trapper Hayes-2 Dakota Miller-6
Ryan Lopez-4 Cody Richmond-7
Dylan Alexander-5 Fred Crozier-10

160 NaCodie Barrows-3 Seth Cutright-1 Preston Martin-2 Josh Hudson-7
Erik Banks-6 Danny Arndt-5 Josiah Solak-4
Liam Bal-8 Marc Williams-9
Damon Gandee-10

170 Matt Dixon-7 Kyle Rogers-1 Hunter Jones-3 Carter Capehart-4
Drew Murphy-8 Mark Becraft-2 Keeten Asbury-5 Jimmy Clark-6
Grant Safford-9
Tim Blake-10

182 Justin Allman-6 David Stas-1 Charles Withrow-4 Jon Peterson-2
Shawn Graham-10 Zane Bradbury-9 Pat Vance-7 Dylan Lageman-3
Stefan Gibbs-5
Ryan Walters-8

195 Tyler Koreski-4 Ryan Carson-1 Chase Hanshaw-8 Ryan Mills-2
Max Chefren-5 RJ Wilson-9 Tanner Hill-3
Isaigh Myers-6 Alex Crum-7
Akeem Brown-10

220 Terrance Fanning-1 Derek Estep-4 Jack Skidmore-7 Noah Julian-5
Geremy Paige-2 Hunter Skeens-8
Cullen Ebbert-3 Austin Budd-9
Logan Dilliner-6 Jacob Duncan-10

285 Preston Wise-1 Daniel Nolte-5 David Smith-3 Nigale Cabell-2
Thomas Hall-4 Frederick Roush-6 Nathan Jefferson-10
Evan Roberts-7
James Walton-8
Khalil Anderson-9

[bsouth332003]

It looked way better when I was typing it out. Attached is a easier to read version.

[WVU197]

The "rankings" are bogus. All voted on by coaches so who knows who is being honest or who is just promoting their wrestler. Half of the time the top seeds dont even place, or place low and unseeded kids do place. If you are good enough to place then you definitely are good enough to take top four in regions. If you are the best in the state then you should take first no matter what, etc. This is a sport that teaches great life lessons and unfortunately one of those lessons is that life isn't always fair. Settle it on the mat not in a coaches room. Best of luck to all wrestlers for the rest of the year.

[admin]

I checked some of last years files and came up with this.

2013 Ranked wrestlers (prior to regionals) who did not qualify for state tournament:

AAA
113 Levi Smith, George Washington, #9 113 (R3)
138 Ryan Lopez, University, #7 138 (R1)
145 Jake Schwertfeger, Brooke, #9 145 (R1)
160 Nick Fisher, University, #10 160 (R1)
170 Hunter Jones, George Washington, #9 170 (R3)
182 Damon Gandee, Parkersburg South, #7 182 (R1)
195 Alex Crum, Logan, #6 195 (dq) (R4)
220 Cody Maurin, Morgantown, #9 220 (R1)

AA/A
106 Tanner Moore, Sissonville, #10 106 (R4)
120 Brett MacIver , Williamstown, #9 120 (R4)
126 Dillon Clarkson, Roane County #8 126 (R4)
132 Chandler Tennant, Clay Battelle, #9, 132 (R1)
138 Brent Wyne, Fairmont Senior, #9 138 (injury)
145 Ricky Hammons, Braxton County, #3 145 (R2)
145 Johnny Taylor, Calhoun County, #4 145 (R3)
160 Austin Stewart, Richwood, #4 160 (R3)
170 Christian Wiley, Weir, #9 170 (R1)
182 Jeremy Pratt, St Marys, #8 182 (R1)
182 Tanner Bolt, Fayetteville, #10 (R3)
195 Matt Harkness, Ritchie County, #9 195 (R1)

I agree that rankings are far from an exact science. But , generally the same process is used to arrive at the rankings as is used for seeding a tournament. I would venture to say that if one were to do away with regional qualifiers and the pill , then the state tournament would be seeded by some process similar to that which produces the weekly rankings.

And if that were the case, I wouldn't want to be within 5 miles of that room where the seeding meeting takes place!! (smile)

No doubt, year in and year out there are many fine athletes who for whatever reason miss the opportunity for the Big Show in Huntington. As has been pointed out, "life isn't always fair."

However, if one looks back the past several years and compares the final weight class rankings prior to the State Tournament with the actual outcome of the tournament, (it is all archived on this website) one can see that they are pretty close. To me, this validates the current process of having regional qualifiers and washing everything through the pill procedure.

A few years ago I did an April Fools feature on "New Format for West Virginia High School Wrestling Tournament." Several people took it seriously.
http://www.wvmat.com/april/april10.htm

[Bearhugger]

This is a great subject.

1. As mentioned, one given region might have 6 ranked wrestlers in the same weight class and only four can make the state tournament. In theory, this means that two wrestlers are not given the chance to win 5th and 6th place in the state tournament. A bigger problem is when certain regions only have 2-3 wrestlers in a given weight class. Thus, only two wrestlers go. I believe this happened in AA last season.

2. The rankings are far from bogus. One can take last years final rankings before the state tournament and then compare them to the final state tournament placings. Much more accurate than bogus.

3. As for coaches promoting their wrestlers, I think MORE coaches need to get MORE involved. Go to a tournament this weekend. Watch the coaches. How many of them act like they are involved in the matches versus just sitting there like lumps. Watch them when they do not have a wrestler on the mat. Are they talking or working with their wrestlers OR are they texting or BS'ing with somebody else. Also, watch the coaches of these winning programs. You will see a big difference in what the coaches do and how they spend their time. Don't fire back at me until you go the the match and watch the coaches.

4. I do believe that if you are good enough in all areas to win an individual state title, then you better be good enough to place in the top four of your region. There are state champions out there who placed 4th in their region.

[bsouth332003]

To comment on WVU197's post. I agree that if you are good enough to win the state championship then there should be no problem placing in the top 4 in the Region. What Regions do hurt though is the kid who may be the fifth best wrestler in the state but didn't get to go because he was also the fifth best wrestler in his Region. Prime example is Region 1 220. Arguably (in my opinion) the top 4 wrestlers come out of Region 1 in Fanning, Paige, Ebbert, and Dilliner in no particular order. Maurin from Morgantown wrestles 220 and in my opinion could sneak into the top 6 in the state tournament. The reason he wont sneak into the top 6 in states is because he more than likely wont have the opportunity to go to states based solely on the strength of the Region. Same could be said about Region 1 145 and 152, Region 3 Heavyweight, and Region 4 132 and 182.

[Qualityshots]

Agreed Bearhugger. It saddens me when I see coaches sitting with there arms crossed while their wrestler is getting beat. I have also noticed that some coaches shake their head when their kid is losing. Are you kidding me? Coach them. That's why we are big fans of Coach Darrell Bennett. He had my kid for 4 year and followed his progress prior to that. He coached my kid into a state championship. WHY? Because if Matthew messed up he knew about it instantly and for the next week in practice. Matthew learned to listen to him and it paid off.

[mscoach4]

There is a 50/50 chance that the 2 best wrestlers will meet on Friday night which means the 2nd best wrestler might finish 3rd. Other than that I don't see much of a problem with our state tournament.

[armyscot0873]

I was in the situation that Bsouth is talking about. I was the 5th best wrestler in my region my senior year and did not get to go to states. Had I been in another region besides region1 and the region I was in I would have made because I beat people who did make it from those other regions. Even with that I do not think that there is a problem. I like the pill and not having the states seeded. The cream will rise to the top.

[Bearhugger]

Good post Armyscot. Just out of curiousity, did your region's top 4 all place in the state tournament?

What happened to you happens in region 1 often I am sure.

[cmse9]

In response to certain regions having wrestlers that will be staying home come state tournament time due to being loaded in a given weight class. The only weight class that it would effect this year is Region 3 at 285, with 5 wrestlers ranked in the top 10. As far as the 5th ranked wrestler from this region even placing would be remote since 4 of them are ranked 6,7,8, and 9. If you go back to last years state tournament you will find only Region 1 had all 4 wrestlers place in two weight classes 113 and 195. At 113 two finished 5 and 6, and at 195 one finished sixth, so had they had a 5th placed wrestler from that region in those two weight classes they could not have placed. Yes, some who deserve to be wrestling at the states will be staying home, but to think they could place is very unlikely.

[jimdotson]

There is a 50/50 chance that the 2 best wrestlers will meet on Friday night

Actually I believe there is 1 chance out of 3 that the two best will meet in the semi-finals.

[armyscot0873]

Two placed the other two lost in the round before placement rounds. Three wrestler placed from region 1 and the ohter was from region 3. I will tell you it killed me. I lost 7-9 and after shaking hands I couldnt hold back the tears. I knew it was over. But even having that experience I like regions and the pill.

[Ferd]

Doc...i remember that...and remember discussions about that "super podium" ...

[Snake]

Doc, that was pretty funny!

I don't think it is about having a "super-podium", but it is about giving the kids who have earned the chance to go to the state tournament based on their accomplishments throughout the entire season the opportunity they deserve. Should a kid with 50-60% of his wins as forfeits because they wrestle a weak schedule go to states over a kid that has wrestled 12 ranked opponents (and beaten 6 of them) out of 30 some matches? This doesn't even take into account the ranked wrestlers that he wrestled from other states. That is the inequality that I am trying to get out there.

[Bearhugger]

Another issue that could continue to develop is a certain region with certain weight classes that do not even have 4 wrestlers in it. Some of these regions/weight classes are getting pretty thin.

[Snake]

bsouth332003, how did the kid from Morgantown do?

To comment on WVU197's post. I agree that if you are good enough to win the state championship then there should be no problem placing in the top 4 in the Region. What Regions do hurt though is the kid who may be the fifth best wrestler in the state but didn't get to go because he was also the fifth best wrestler in his Region. Prime example is Region 1 220. Arguably (in my opinion) the top 4 wrestlers come out of Region 1 in Fanning, Paige, Ebbert, and Dilliner in no particular order. Maurin from Morgantown wrestles 220 and in my opinion could sneak into the top 6 in the state tournament. The reason he wont sneak into the top 6 in states is because he more than likely wont have the opportunity to go to states based solely on the strength of the Region. Same could be said about Region 1 145 and 152, Region 3 Heavyweight, and Region 4 132 and 182.

[South26169]

He moved to 285 and qualified

[Bearhugger]

I remember back in the 80s, there was a kid who could not beat out his team's 167 pounder. Unlimited was an easier weightclass than 185 in AA that season. This same kid went up to unlimited and placed 4th in the state tournament. He said he had to drink a whole gallon of water to weigh enough to be over 185lbs to be eligible to compete at unlimited. He then wrestled 167 the following season.

[jofus]

Holy two year old blast from the past, Batman.

And actually, there's a 33% chance that the top two wrestle on Friday night.