WVU in Big 12. Opportunity or Oh $h!t??

[Bearhugger]

Below is an analysis using Flo's preseason NATIONAL rankings and how they relate to the Big 12 by weight class.

The order is as follows: Weight Class, Preseason National Ranking, corresponding Big 12 School per ranking, WVU's wrestler and ranking, discussion.

125: #6 UVU, #8 UNI, #9 WVU. One honorable mention OU. Returning NCAA All American Cardinale is preseason nationally ranked #9. Currently, he only has two nationally ranked wrestlers to contend with in the Big 12.

133: #2 OKST, #14 MIZZ, #17 AFA, #21 ISU, #23 OU, Honorable Mention (HM) UNCO, NDST, UVU. WVU's 133 has not been declared. This individual has 5 nationally ranked and 3 HMs to contend with in order to qualify for the NCAA. I like rankings. Some say rankings do not matter. I really hope they do not matter.

141: #7 MIZZ, #8 SDST, #11 OU, #14 ISU, HM: UNCO, NDST, UVU. Whoever WVU's 141 is, he will have 4 preseason nationally ranked wrestlers and 2 HM's to blast through.

149: #4 MIZZ, #17 OU, #20 SDST, #22 ISU, #23 UNI, HM: UNCO, UVU. Whoever WVU's 149 is, he will have to run over 5 preseason nationally ranked wrestlers and 2 HMs.

157: #11 MIZZ, #12 NDST, #16 OKST, #17 WYO, #19 OU. ZERO HMs.

165: #5 MIZZ, #6 NDST, #7 OKST, #9 UVU, #14 WVU, #20 SDST, #23 WYO, #24 UNI. Zero HM's. NCAA qualifying Peyton Hall returns with a #14 ranking. He has 4 Big 12 wrestlers ranked ahead of him and 3 coming up behind him. Ole PH is going to have to run some guys out of wrestling Georgia Championship style and clean out the Big 12 tournament.

174: #13 WYO, #16 MIZZ, #18 SDST, #20 UNCO, #21 OKST, HM's: ISU, OU, UNI.

184: #4 UNI, #6 OKST, #13 MIZZ, #14 WYO, #21 ISU, #23 UNCO. Zero HMs,

197: #1 OKST, #5 MIZZ, #6 OU, #10 WYO, #13 SDST, #16 NDST. Zero HMs.

285: #8 WYO, #9 OKST, #11 MIZZ, #12 AFA, #16 OU, #18 UNI, #23 NDST, HMs: ISU, SDST, WVU.

There are two schools of thought here. WVU's wrestlers have plenty of opportunities to wrestle and beat nationally ranked wrestlers. On the other hand, the road looks rough to match or surpass last season's 4 NCAA qualifiers.

Furthermore, the addition of Missouri did not help matters. Missouri has a preseason nationally ranked wrestler in all 10 weight classes. WVU has 2.

It has been alleged that this is one of WVU's best teams.

Good luck!!!!!

[Diamond]

Below is an analysis using Flo's preseason NATIONAL rankings and how they relate to the Big 12 by weight class.

The order is as follows: Weight Class, Preseason National Ranking, corresponding Big 12 School per ranking, WVU's wrestler and ranking, discussion.

125: #6 UVU, #8 UNI, #9 WVU. One honorable mention OU. Returning NCAA All American Cardinale is preseason nationally ranked #9. Currently, he only has two nationally ranked wrestlers to contend with in the Big 12.

133: #2 OKST, #14 MIZZ, #17 AFA, #21 ISU, #23 OU, Honorable Mention (HM) UNCO, NDST, UVU. WVU's 133 has not been declared. This individual has 5 nationally ranked and 3 HMs to contend with in order to qualify for the NCAA. I like rankings. Some say rankings do not matter. I really hope they do not matter.

141: #7 MIZZ, #8 SDST, #11 OU, #14 ISU, HM: UNCO, NDST, UVU. Whoever WVU's 141 is, he will have 4 preseason nationally ranked wrestlers and 2 HM's to blast through.

149: #4 MIZZ, #17 OU, #20 SDST, #22 ISU, #23 UNI, HM: UNCO, UVU. Whoever WVU's 149 is, he will have to run over 5 preseason nationally ranked wrestlers and 2 HMs.

157: #11 MIZZ, #12 NDST, #16 OKST, #17 WYO, #19 OU. ZERO HMs.

165: #5 MIZZ, #6 NDST, #7 OKST, #9 UVU, #14 WVU, #20 SDST, #23 WYO, #24 UNI. Zero HM's. NCAA qualifying Peyton Hall returns with a #14 ranking. He has 4 Big 12 wrestlers ranked ahead of him and 3 coming up behind him. Ole PH is going to have to run some guys out of wrestling Georgia Championship style and clean out the Big 12 tournament.

174: #13 WYO, #16 MIZZ, #18 SDST, #20 UNCO, #21 OKST, HM's: ISU, OU, UNI.

184: #4 UNI, #6 OKST, #13 MIZZ, #14 WYO, #21 ISU, #23 UNCO. Zero HMs,

197: #1 OKST, #5 MIZZ, #6 OU, #10 WYO, #13 SDST, #16 NDST. Zero HMs.

285: #8 WYO, #9 OKST, #11 MIZZ, #12 AFA, #16 OU, #18 UNI, #23 NDST, HMs: ISU, SDST, WVU.

There are two schools of thought here. WVU's wrestlers have plenty of opportunities to wrestle and beat nationally ranked wrestlers. On the other hand, the road looks rough to match or surpass last season's 4 NCAA qualifiers.

Furthermore, the addition of Missouri did not help matters. Missouri has a preseason nationally ranked wrestler in all 10 weight classes. WVU has 2.

It has been alleged that this is one of WVU's best teams.

Good luck!!!!!

Missouri has 10 ranked and we have 2? Well we would have had 4 but now we don’t. Two of our top guys abandoned ship on the rest of the team. The team that very well could have been one of their best. The oh &*^&( moment you are suggesting took place last year. Don’t put it on these boys, they’re ascending.

[Jon Perkins]

After watching their wrestle offs this past weekend I totally agree. It may take a few weeks or even more to get the full team put together, as some of the guys were out due to illness or injuries, but once everyone is healthy I think they are going to do just fine. Caleb Rae looked good at 141 pounds. The last time he was in the lineup a few years back he was ranked in the top 30 so I look for him to continue that success. Jeff Boyd looked really good at 149 pounds and with Luke Karam at that wight as well this weight class will be solid all year. The surprise of the day for me was Denise Robin at 174. I have always thought that Scott Joll was a solid wrestler, he just lacked the consistency needed to qualify for the National Tournament but on Saturday Denise Robin had no problems in defeating him twice. Keep an eye on this kid throughout the season. Other guys that did well were Peyton Hall and Michael Wolfgram. These two were dominating in their weight class and will do just fine all season long.

As a team they may not be ready to compete for a BIG 12 Championship or even a top 5 finish but they will hold their own all season and continue to improve. Even without Sullivan and Adams I still feel this is a one of WVU's best teams in quite some time. It may not be as good without those two guys but the state of WV will be represented well whenever they compete. Good Luck to all those competing this weekend at the Clarion Open.

[Bearhugger]

Below is an analysis using Flo's preseason NATIONAL rankings and how they relate to the Big 12 by weight class.

The order is as follows: Weight Class, Preseason National Ranking, corresponding Big 12 School per ranking, WVU's wrestler and ranking, discussion.

125: #6 UVU, #8 UNI, #9 WVU. One honorable mention OU. Returning NCAA All American Cardinale is preseason nationally ranked #9. Currently, he only has two nationally ranked wrestlers to contend with in the Big 12.

133: #2 OKST, #14 MIZZ, #17 AFA, #21 ISU, #23 OU, Honorable Mention (HM) UNCO, NDST, UVU. WVU's 133 has not been declared. This individual has 5 nationally ranked and 3 HMs to contend with in order to qualify for the NCAA. I like rankings. Some say rankings do not matter. I really hope they do not matter.

141: #7 MIZZ, #8 SDST, #11 OU, #14 ISU, HM: UNCO, NDST, UVU. Whoever WVU's 141 is, he will have 4 preseason nationally ranked wrestlers and 2 HM's to blast through.

149: #4 MIZZ, #17 OU, #20 SDST, #22 ISU, #23 UNI, HM: UNCO, UVU. Whoever WVU's 149 is, he will have to run over 5 preseason nationally ranked wrestlers and 2 HMs.

157: #11 MIZZ, #12 NDST, #16 OKST, #17 WYO, #19 OU. ZERO HMs.

165: #5 MIZZ, #6 NDST, #7 OKST, #9 UVU, #14 WVU, #20 SDST, #23 WYO, #24 UNI. Zero HM's. NCAA qualifying Peyton Hall returns with a #14 ranking. He has 4 Big 12 wrestlers ranked ahead of him and 3 coming up behind him. Ole PH is going to have to run some guys out of wrestling Georgia Championship style and clean out the Big 12 tournament.

174: #13 WYO, #16 MIZZ, #18 SDST, #20 UNCO, #21 OKST, HM's: ISU, OU, UNI.

184: #4 UNI, #6 OKST, #13 MIZZ, #14 WYO, #21 ISU, #23 UNCO. Zero HMs,

197: #1 OKST, #5 MIZZ, #6 OU, #10 WYO, #13 SDST, #16 NDST. Zero HMs.

285: #8 WYO, #9 OKST, #11 MIZZ, #12 AFA, #16 OU, #18 UNI, #23 NDST, HMs: ISU, SDST, WVU.

There are two schools of thought here. WVU's wrestlers have plenty of opportunities to wrestle and beat nationally ranked wrestlers. On the other hand, the road looks rough to match or surpass last season's 4 NCAA qualifiers.

Furthermore, the addition of Missouri did not help matters. Missouri has a preseason nationally ranked wrestler in all 10 weight classes. WVU has 2.

It has been alleged that this is one of WVU's best teams.

Good luck!!!!!

Missouri has 10 ranked and we have 2? Well we would have had 4 but now we don’t. Two of our top guys abandoned ship on the rest of the team. The team that very well could have been one of their best. The oh &*^&( moment you are suggesting took place last year. Don’t put it on these boys, they’re ascending.

My post had nothing to do with last season. It is all about this season and what is ahead for WVU when it comes to wrestling in the Big 12 tournament and trying to qualify wrestlers for the NCAA tournament.

The "experts" put together their rankings. Quite a few Big 12 wrestlers nationally ranked ahead of WVU's squad.

This has been put on the WVU boys by the other schools.

[mscoach57]

Missouri has 10 ranked and we have 2? Well we would have had 4 but now we don’t. Two of our top guys abandoned ship on the rest of the team. The team that very well could have been one of their best. The oh &*^&( moment you are suggesting took place last year. Don’t put it on these boys, they’re ascending.

On September 21st John Perkins said
"Even though they have lost a couple of the better guys from last year the Mountaineers have a very solid team. I have been following them for several years and this team is one of the better teams, if not the best team, they have had in quite some time. They are fairly young but they are loaded with talent. They have 19 individual state champions, 8 of those being from WV, and the other 11 represent six different states. Which means they are getting better talent from all over and that has not happened since I have been following the team. The recruiting has vastly improved over what Henson brought to the table."

John Perkins made this prediction long after Sullivan and Noah to use your words "abandoned ship on the rest of the team". So John Perkins knew about the changes in the lineup and still said this is one of the better if not the best team they have had in quite some time. He can't roll back on that statement and say the team might not be as good as he thought because Noah and Sullivan are gone.

What was the oh &*^& moment last year?

When wrestle offs happened and several notable faces were missing, we were told that all of the missing wrestlers were out due to injury or sickness. 10 out of 35 wrestlers seems like a lot. Cardinale? Lautzenheiser? Rhoads? Titus? Roberts? Karam? Cicciarelli? Sharer? Bradbury? Mileto? Nearly one third of the team being out with sickness or injury seems like a lot.

How is the culture? Coach Flynn made a big deal about turning around the culture. Bringing in "better" people than Henson brought in. These are all Flynn recruits. How did the summer go? How has the first semester gone? Everyone staying out of trouble and working hard?

On October 6 you said "Coach Flynn is doing a great job" & "What Sam Henson did or who participates in Greco Roman wrestling are non factors in the success of WVU wrestling this season."
Everyone wants to believe you Diamond. We are rooting for your son and the rest of the Mountaineers. People want to believe John Perkins when he says this is the best team in recent history. You understand that fans wonder why wrestlers that Coach Flynn recruited are leaving. Fans wonder why certain wrestlers are not wrestling in wrestle offs. You said it right on October 6, these things can't be blamed on Sammie Henson anymore. This is a 100% Tim Flynn team. We support the team but you can't be mad when people ask questions.

[Jon Perkins]

Jon Perkins wrote:
Even without Sullivan and Adams I still feel this is a one of WVU's best teams in quite some time. It may not be as good without those two guys but the state of WV will be represented well whenever they compete.

I did not back down from my earlier statement, I still stand behind it. However just because I feel that this is one of the best teams they have had in several years does not mean that they are going to finish in the Top 5 in the Big 12 or even in the Top 20 at the National tournament.

To kind of answer some of your questions about the guys not wrestling off this past Saturday. I'm sure I was not the only one that was disappointed that a lot of the team did not participate but they were present and helping with the other wrestle offs. After the wrestling was over I talked to some of the staff and they confirmed that some of the other guys had been out due to being sick and were just getting back in the practice room. They did not wrestle off because they were not ready to go and would have made for a bad product for the fans. I did talk to one of the wrestlers at the Golf Outing this year and can confirm that he is still rehabbing an injury from last year. I did not hear of anyone not wrestling off due to disciplinary reasons.

Lets hope that some of these guys are ready to go by this weekend, they will be fun to watch.

[Bearhugger]

A chain is only as strong as its weakest link. This leads us to recognize what makes wrestling a great sport. One wrestler chooses to work hard in the off season and make measurable progress in the weight room while his team mate increases his 12 ounce curls. One wrestler works in the off season correcting his biggest technical weakness while a team mate who has been on the team for 3 seasons loses in wrestle offs to a first year guy.

The hard workers elevate themselves while the slackers drag down the team.

For me, I am NOT forming any opinions on WVU when it comes to team related scores. I am simply waiting, watching and counting how many NCAA qualifiers they achieve.

4 last season. We need 5 or more this season to show that the program is improving.

[Bearhugger]

Jon Perkins wrote:
Even without Sullivan and Adams I still feel this is a one of WVU's best teams in quite some time. It may not be as good without those two guys but the state of WV will be represented well whenever they compete.

I did not back down from my earlier statement, I still stand behind it. However just because I feel that this is one of the best teams they have had in several years does not mean that they are going to finish in the Top 5 in the Big 12 or even in the Top 20 at the National tournament.

To kind of answer some of your questions about the guys not wrestling off this past Saturday. I'm sure I was not the only one that was disappointed that a lot of the team did not participate but they were present and helping with the other wrestle offs. After the wrestling was over I talked to some of the staff and they confirmed that some of the other guys had been out due to being sick and were just getting back in the practice room. They did not wrestle off because they were not ready to go and would have made for a bad product for the fans. I did talk to one of the wrestlers at the Golf Outing this year and can confirm that he is still rehabbing an injury from last year. I did not hear of anyone not wrestling off due to disciplinary reasons.

Lets hope that some of these guys are ready to go by this weekend, they will be fun to watch.

The Clarion Open should serve as a good assessment of where WVU's squad is. Before this event happens, lets all remind ourselves of:

1. Covid related challenges impact all wrestling teams.

2. All wrestling teams use the same calendar. It is early in the season for ALL teams. If Bloomsburg appears to be 10 steps ahead of WVU this weekend, then WVU better start going faster while hoping that Bloomsburg slows down. Why would Bloomsburg slow down??

3. Injuries happen to all teams. However, for wrestlers to be banged up so bad to miss the first wrestle off, then they either experienced a freak inury or maybe they just didn't do enough off season preparation.

4. Did all wrestlers make weight for wrestle offs?

[Jon Perkins]

I will not say that you are wrong about the number of national qualifiers showing improvement but I don't think that is the only sign of improvement. For instance, say we have 4 qualifiers or even 3 qualifiers. At first glance one would say they didn't improve. But lets say those that did qualify all made it to the round of 12 and we had two get through to become All-Americans and the team score improves from 11.5 Points to 16 Points with a Top 25 finish. I would call that a good improvement.

For what it is worth I was talking to one of the coaches after wrestle offs and they are happy with where they are as a team and how things are improving. He said they are starting to get some competition and depth at several weight classes and once that is in place then the more elite kids will want to come. So far he is right, I feel like their recruiting has improved and there were some heavy hitters taking a visit last Saturday.

As far as the Clarion Open on Sunday, I think if they can get 8 to place in the top 6 that would be a good showing. Traditionally they place 6 in the Open tournaments because the guys that win in the semi's wrestle for 1st and 2nd and the losers wrestle for 3rd and 4th while everyone else in the consolation bracket is wrestling for 5th and 6th. So whoever places 6th will only have 2 losses on the day. Good luck to the entire team.

a side note John Martin Best is entered in the 165 pound weight class, good luck to him as well.

[Bearhugger]

I will not say that you are wrong about the number of national qualifiers showing improvement but I don't think that is the only sign of improvement. For instance, say we have 4 qualifiers or even 3 qualifiers. At first glance one would say they didn't improve. But lets say those that did qualify all made it to the round of 12 and we had two get through to become All-Americans and the team score improves from 11.5 Points to 16 Points with a Top 25 finish. I would call that a good improvement.

For what it is worth I was talking to one of the coaches after wrestle offs and they are happy with where they are as a team and how things are improving. He said they are starting to get some competition and depth at several weight classes and once that is in place then the more elite kids will want to come. So far he is right, I feel like their recruiting has improved and there were some heavy hitters taking a visit last Saturday.

As far as the Clarion Open on Sunday, I think if they can get 8 to place in the top 6 that would be a good showing. Traditionally they place 6 in the Open tournaments because the guys that win in the semi's wrestle for 1st and 2nd and the losers wrestle for 3rd and 4th while everyone else in the consolation bracket is wrestling for 5th and 6th. So whoever places 6th will only have 2 losses on the day. Good luck to the entire team.

a side note John Martin Best is entered in the 165 pound weight class, good luck to him as well.

1. There are many measurable ways to gauge improvement. We can use all of them. As for a coach saying "I like where we are as a team", I have heard and read that many times from many coaches in many sports.

2. Actually, 5 or more NCAA qualifiers for WVU is a super sign of improvement. They are starting the season with only 2 returning NCAA qualifiers. Adding three more first time qualifiers would be huge.

3. Besides Hall and Best, the Clarion Open also has Cameron Pine of Washington High School in the bracket. Three WV wrestlers, same tournament, same weight class. This should be fun.

[mscoach57]

In a previous post I listed the wrestlers who did not participate in wrestle offs.
“Cardinale? Lautzenheiser? Rhoads? Titus? Roberts? Karam? Cicciarelli? Sharer? Bradbury? Mileto?”

Of these ten, still no Cardinale, Rhoads, Karam, Cicciarelli, Sharer, Bradbury, Mileto for the Clarion Open.

Being an optimist we gained 3 wrestlers. 7 are still missing. Should we put them on the back of a milk carton?

Pennsylvania’s Karam was brought in to take over 149. John Perkins has said repeatedly that Karam is his favorite at that weight. Rumor mill is buzzing. Wondering if Diamond or John Perkins would care to let us know how Karam is doing in the wvu room and when we can expect to see him compete? Is he still going to classes? Is he still on the team?

[Diamond]

In a previous post I listed the wrestlers who did not participate in wrestle offs.
“Cardinale? Lautzenheiser? Rhoads? Titus? Roberts? Karam? Cicciarelli? Sharer? Bradbury? Mileto?”

Of these ten, still no Cardinale, Rhoads, Karam, Cicciarelli, Sharer, Bradbury, Mileto for the Clarion Open.

Being an optimist we gained 3 wrestlers. 7 are still missing. Should we put them on the back of a milk carton?

Pennsylvania’s Karam was brought in to take over 149. John Perkins has said repeatedly that Karam is his favorite at that weight. Rumor mill is buzzing. Wondering if Diamond or John Perkins would care to let us know how Karam is doing in the wvu room and when we can expect to see him compete? Is he still going to classes? Is he still on the team?

I don’t know anything of Karam, I’m still under the impression Brayden Roberts is the 149#. Wish I could help.

[Bearhugger]

Jon Perkins wrote:
Even without Sullivan and Adams I still feel this is a one of WVU's best teams in quite some time. It may not be as good without those two guys but the state of WV will be represented well whenever they compete.

I did not back down from my earlier statement, I still stand behind it. However just because I feel that this is one of the best teams they have had in several years does not mean that they are going to finish in the Top 5 in the Big 12 or even in the Top 20 at the National tournament.

To kind of answer some of your questions about the guys not wrestling off this past Saturday. I'm sure I was not the only one that was disappointed that a lot of the team did not participate but they were present and helping with the other wrestle offs. After the wrestling was over I talked to some of the staff and they confirmed that some of the other guys had been out due to being sick and were just getting back in the practice room. They did not wrestle off because they were not ready to go and would have made for a bad product for the fans. I did talk to one of the wrestlers at the Golf Outing this year and can confirm that he is still rehabbing an injury from last year. I did not hear of anyone not wrestling off due to disciplinary reasons.

Lets hope that some of these guys are ready to go by this weekend, they will be fun to watch.

The Clarion Open should serve as a good assessment of where WVU's squad is. Before this event happens, lets all remind ourselves of:

1. Covid related challenges impact all wrestling teams.

2. All wrestling teams use the same calendar. It is early in the season for ALL teams. If Bloomsburg appears to be 10 steps ahead of WVU this weekend, then WVU better start going faster while hoping that Bloomsburg slows down. Why would Bloomsburg slow down??

3. Injuries happen to all teams. However, for wrestlers to be banged up so bad to miss the first wrestle off, then they either experienced a freak inury or maybe they just didn't do enough off season preparation.

4. Did all wrestlers make weight for wrestle offs?

The Clarion Open is a wrap. I am sure plenty of people have dug through the results to form an early assessment of WVU's team. I am going to start digging now. More to come.

I do want to give a shout out to Peyton Hall for winning. He is WVU's only ranked and returning NCAA qualifier that is competing in this season opening event. He is proving his worth to be on both versions of WVU's schedule poster.

Another shout out to other WV wrestlers such as Austin Chapman, John Martin Best (runner up) and Cameron Pine. These three gentlemen are of course competing for Clarion and Maryland.