JV Trivia

[Bearhugger]

While looking over last season's results of the Bob Zide Rumble, I came across the following for the 106 weight class:

1st: Cole Laya, East Fairmont 42- 0
2nd: Caleb Grennlee, Gallia Academy 27- 3
3rd: Lane Flint, East Fairmont - JV 33- 3
4th: Justin Stover, Herbert Hoover 24- 6

When looking at the brackets, East Fairmont's JV wrestler Lane Flint defeated Hoover's Stover twice in that tournament.

Last season, Flint was JV behind Cole Laya, undefeated, two time state champion and NHSCA All American.

Stover went on to the the state tournament and placed 4th.

Flint did not get to participate.

[vortexfan]

That is interesting; I hate to see a good JV wrestler like that not able to compete in State, i know its been discussed before but would be great to see the best wrestlers rewarded for their talents. Another problem besides talented JV wrestlers is the Regions not getting the best wrestlers at the states.

[coach_williams]

I get your point and there are certainly valid times when a JV wrestler would make a solid addition to the state tournament, but...

playing Devil's Advocate here...

1) What about the regions that have less than 4 wrestlers in a weight class AND don't have a solid JV wrestler? Is it OK for some 9-23 JV wrestler to get a free ride to the state tournament while a 22-8 JV wrestler from another region doesn't because he is in a region with a full weight class?

2) What happens when that 9-23 wrestler draws the #1 seed, gets absolutely destroyed on the mat because he is majorly outclassed and because of his embarrassment at the state tournament decides he doesn't want to wrestle anymore? Don't think it can't happen. I have seen kids quit simply from losing a wrestle-off in front of their team. Taking a 15-0 tech fall or getting pinned in :17 seconds at the state tournament in front of thousands can certainly result in a wrestler walking away from the sport.

3) JV wrestlers typically (not always) are inexperienced wrestlers. They lock hands, they put in full nelson's, they pull on singlets to maintain control and they execute technique poorly. Who will bear the responsibility when a JV wrestler who doesn't know any better faces the #1 seed who is a senior, illegally slams that #1 seed and dislocates his shoulder, resulting in the senior ending his wrestling career watching the tournament with his arm in a sling?

All I am saying is there are more factors to this "JV wrestlers should qualify for states" than just a few kids getting excluded. When you change the rules to accommodate a few you are also changing them to benefit many. Yes, quality wrestlers like Flint will be included, but so will numerous undeserving wrestlers. Is allowing one or two wrestlers like Flint into the tournament worth having 15 or 20 wrestlers who didn't even win 50% of their matches being there also? As soon as we allow JV wrestlers into the tournament the immediate response will be questions raised as to why a JV wrestler who only beat other JV wrestlers and got forfeits to reach his 11-18 record is in the tournament. You can not change this rule and only get good JV wrestlers in as a result. There WILL be bad JV wrestlers at the state tournament.

[mscoach64]

its the nature of all games. if the Denver Broncos finish 7-9 but win their division, then they make the playoffs. It doesnt matter if the Cincinnati Bengals finish 10-6 but doesnt win their division or wild card. It is what it is. There has to be some sort of regional or district criteria to making the state tournament......otherwise we'd have a state tournament to get the top 16 so we'd have another state tournament. The fact that some regions are tougher than others is really an avenue that can not be fixed. This year region 1 may be tough, but 3-4 years from now it may be tough in region 7.

[mscoach90]

Individuals not being able to get out of the region due to the stiff competition has been going on for over 30 years.

[coach_williams]

its the nature of all games. if the Denver Broncos finish 7-9 but win their division, then they make the playoffs. It doesnt matter if the Cincinnati Bengals finish 10-6 but doesnt win their division or wild card. It is what it is. There has to be some sort of regional or district criteria to making the state tournament......otherwise we'd have a state tournament to get the top 16 so we'd have another state tournament. The fact that some regions are tougher than others is really an avenue that can not be fixed. This year region 1 may be tough, but 3-4 years from now it may be tough in region 7.

It's not the same thing tho. Allowing JV wrestlers in is essentially allowing the Bengals in with a 10-6 record even though they didn't win the division or earn a Wild Card spot. JV wrestlers did not win the varsity spot on their team, but the suggestion is that they should have the same chances as varsity wrestlers.

I am fine with that as long as people understand the outcome. You can not pick and choose which JV wrestlers get in. By changing the rule to allow 1 or 2 good JV wrestlers in you are also allowing an unknown number of not so great JV wrestlers in. Bearhugger has created several threads discussing the numerous open spots that will exist this year. Who will fill all of those spots? Surely you guys don't think that only good JV wrestlers will fill them.

[aacoach70]

I'm not arguing against the possibility of allowing JV wrestlers to qualify for the state tournament, but I am curious how it would change the dynamic within programs. What I mean is: What motivation would a JV wrestler have to become a starter if he gets to qualify and go to the tournament the same as the varsity wrestler? Can he be a letterman,.. or would it mean teams can have unlimited numbers of starters in each weight class without having to designate any as JV, provided they are good enough to qualify? Whose points would count toward team score? Could JV kids who aren't willing to put in the work in their own practice room still reap the rewards? There are a bunch of questions that are unknown about the idea. I do think there should be some uniformity and not the "just let the kids wrestle no matter what" method. Just some points to mull over.

[mike.carman]

It's a can of worms. If the powers that be really want to fix it then go to a single division.
You can still have your A,AA,AAA team champions and you can still have 2 tournaments per region. In actuality you could have 3 per region. Example: 4 regions, 2 sections per region. 2 sectional tournaments, 1 regional tournament and a state tournament.

[vortexfan]

I guess it would come down to what is the objective for the WV state wrestling tourney.?

There's a lot of variables but the original post was regarding a talented JV wrestler that was unfortunately behind an All American varsity guy. I cannot understand why a kid like that which very well could have been the third or second best wrestler in the state not even be there to compete. It's basically the same principle with having the regionals elimate a better wrestler than another less talented wrestler in another region.

I see posts that schools can't fill a full team; forfeits; low number of wrestlers; big schools have advantages;

Put the student athlete first and promote the sport, have some at large bids for state tourney for the deserving wrestlers. Have dual matches for team championship and invitational individual state tourney.. what a week that would be!

[mscoach64]

its the nature of all games. if the Denver Broncos finish 7-9 but win their division, then they make the playoffs. It doesnt matter if the Cincinnati Bengals finish 10-6 but doesnt win their division or wild card. It is what it is. There has to be some sort of regional or district criteria to making the state tournament......otherwise we'd have a state tournament to get the top 16 so we'd have another state tournament. The fact that some regions are tougher than others is really an avenue that can not be fixed. This year region 1 may be tough, but 3-4 years from now it may be tough in region 7.

It's not the same thing tho. Allowing JV wrestlers in is essentially allowing the Bengals in with a 10-6 record even though they didn't win the division or earn a Wild Card spot. JV wrestlers did not win the varsity spot on their team, but the suggestion is that they should have the same chances as varsity wrestlers.

I am fine with that as long as people understand the outcome. You can not pick and choose which JV wrestlers get in. By changing the rule to allow 1 or 2 good JV wrestlers in you are also allowing an unknown number of not so great JV wrestlers in. Bearhugger has created several threads discussing the numerous open spots that will exist this year. Who will fill all of those spots? Surely you guys don't think that only good JV wrestlers will fill them.

you missed what I was trying to say. I am with you. I do not feel that JV wrestlers should be allowed in the state tournament. My point was trying to say the same thing you seem to be saying.

[vortexfan]

OK; not trying to debate

[mike.carman]

I guess it would come down to what is the objective for the WV state wrestling tourney.?

There's a lot of variables but the original post was regarding a talented JV wrestler that was unfortunately behind an All American varsity guy. I cannot understand why a kid like that which very well could have been the third or second best wrestler in the state not even be there to compete. It's basically the same principle with having the regionals elimate a better wrestler than another less talented wrestler in another region.

I see posts that schools can't fill a full team; forfeits; low number of wrestlers; big schools have advantages;

Put the student athlete first and promote the sport, have some at large bids for state tourney for the deserving wrestlers. Have dual matches for team championship and invitational individual state tourney.. what a week that would be!

These are definitely options as well. An at large bid for the regional would accomplish this. I am not opposed to JV kids being allowed to compete. I am opposed to putting kids in a situation that may humiliate them. Obviously in the case of the 2 106 pounders from EF, they both can compete at a high level, however, as I said in another post, they are the exception and not the rule. Also most schools are not fortunate enough to have depth in their lineups either.

[aacoach119]

You can always be like DC OR MARLAND high school jv players move to Martinsburg WV they will find you a varsity position.

[P.H.D.]

I, as well as others, cannot see the big picture but in most cases a jv wrestles jv only if he/she cannot win a spot. However, there are highlighted circumstances this season whereas a jv wrestler not only got the opportunity to fill a sick/injured varsity wrestlers position but also defeated several ranked opponents. Maybe i'm wrong or not seeing the implications but I think these are definitely situations worthy of consideration. So what if there was a rule that stated any jv wrestler that defeats a ranked wrestler in his/her weight class and the wrestler that he/she defeated still maintains a ranking of 8 or higher(?) till said date(?)That wrestler is now eligible to wrestle in.......(someone else think of where to go from here). Just an idea to help get the jvs that deserve a chance. I'm not adamant either way but id like to see what others think.

[mscoach64]

In no one does my next comment have anything to do with the wrestlers mentioned in this thread. But I'm going to relate it to the Big school vs small school debate and say what is said to us smaller schools. So here it is; "theyll just have to work harder."

[Bearhugger]

Individuals not being able to get out of the region due to the stiff competition has been going on for over 30 years.

Just because "we" have done something wrong for 30 years is no reason why it should continue for another 30. Of course in 30 years, there will be less schools, less wrestling teams and more forfeits in WV. Why??? Because we continue to do the same stuff for 30 years. Some people want better things, so they move away and take their wrestlers. Less people, means less students. Enrollment drops. Forfeits go up. Programs die.

[Bearhugger]

I get your point and there are certainly valid times when a JV wrestler would make a solid addition to the state tournament, but...

playing Devil's Advocate here...

1) What about the regions that have less than 4 wrestlers in a weight class AND don't have a solid JV wrestler? Is it OK for some 9-23 JV wrestler to get a free ride to the state tournament while a 22-8 JV wrestler from another region doesn't because he is in a region with a full weight class?

2) What happens when that 9-23 wrestler draws the #1 seed, gets absolutely destroyed on the mat because he is majorly outclassed and because of his embarrassment at the state tournament decides he doesn't want to wrestle anymore? Don't think it can't happen. I have seen kids quit simply from losing a wrestle-off in front of their team. Taking a 15-0 tech fall or getting pinned in :17 seconds at the state tournament in front of thousands can certainly result in a wrestler walking away from the sport.

3) JV wrestlers typically (not always) are inexperienced wrestlers. They lock hands, they put in full nelson's, they pull on singlets to maintain control and they execute technique poorly. Who will bear the responsibility when a JV wrestler who doesn't know any better faces the #1 seed who is a senior, illegally slams that #1 seed and dislocates his shoulder, resulting in the senior ending his wrestling career watching the tournament with his arm in a sling?

All I am saying is there are more factors to this "JV wrestlers should qualify for states" than just a few kids getting excluded. When you change the rules to accommodate a few you are also changing them to benefit many. Yes, quality wrestlers like Flint will be included, but so will numerous undeserving wrestlers. Is allowing one or two wrestlers like Flint into the tournament worth having 15 or 20 wrestlers who didn't even win 50% of their matches being there also? As soon as we allow JV wrestlers into the tournament the immediate response will be questions raised as to why a JV wrestler who only beat other JV wrestlers and got forfeits to reach his 11-18 record is in the tournament. You can not change this rule and only get good JV wrestlers in as a result. There WILL be bad JV wrestlers at the state tournament.

SEE MY COMMENTS IN ALL CAPS BELOW:

I get your point and there are certainly valid times when a JV wrestler would make a solid addition to the state tournament, but...

playing Devil's Advocate here...

1) What about the regions that have less than 4 wrestlers in a weight class AND don't have a solid JV wrestler? Is it OK for some 9-23 JV wrestler to get a free ride to the state tournament while a 22-8 JV wrestler from another region doesn't because he is in a region with a full weight class? THIS IS WHERE WE NEED A WILD CARD SYSTEM. HOWEVER, THE CURRENT SYSTEM ALREADY ALLOWS THIS. GO BACK THROUGH THE SCORES OF PAST REGIONAL TOURNAMENTS. THE RECORDS OF MANY WRESTLERS ARE BARELY .500. IN ADDITION, DO YOU WANT BYES IN THE STATE TOURNAMENT OR DO YOU WANT MATCHES???? I WANT MATCHES!!!!!!!!!

2) What happens when that 9-23 wrestler draws the #1 seed, gets absolutely destroyed on the mat because he is majorly outclassed and because of his embarrassment at the state tournament decides he doesn't want to wrestle anymore? Don't think it can't happen. I have seen kids quit simply from losing a wrestle-off in front of their team. Taking a 15-0 tech fall or getting pinned in :17 seconds at the state tournament in front of thousands can certainly result in a wrestler walking away from the sport. WE ALREADY HAVE THAT HAPPENING NOW. GO LOOK AT LAST SEASON'S STATE TOURNAMENT BRACKETS. MANY FIRST ROUND PINS. ANY KID STILL ON THE TEAM AT REGIONAL TIME WANTS TO WRESTLE. I SEE KIDS GET ABSOLUTELY DESTROYED EVERY WEEKEND. I WILL SEE IT MANY TIMES NEXT WEEKEND AT THE WSAZ. THE POINT BEING MISSED IS THAT FLINT OF LAST SEASON AND CASSUCIO OF THIS SEASON WILL BE THE "DESTROYERS" NOT THE DESTROYED.

3) JV wrestlers typically (not always) are inexperienced wrestlers. They lock hands, they put in full nelson's, they pull on singlets to maintain control and they execute technique poorly. Who will bear the responsibility when a JV wrestler who doesn't know any better faces the #1 seed who is a senior, illegally slams that #1 seed and dislocates his shoulder, resulting in the senior ending his wrestling career watching the tournament with his arm in a sling? THINKING LIKE THIS............WHAT IF NORTH KOREA SHOOTS A MISSILE INTO BIG SANDY ARENA NEXT WEEKEND AND TAKES US ALL OUT???? WHO WILL FILL THE FORUM THEN????

All I am saying is there are more factors to this "JV wrestlers should qualify for states" NEVER SAID ANYTHING LIKE THIS. ALLOW THEM INTO THE REGION. LET THEM WRESTLE THEIR WAY IN. IF THEY WRESTLE AND WIN, THEY DESERVE TO GO. THE LOSERS WERE BEAT BY BETTER MEN than just a few kids getting excluded. When you change the rules to accommodate a few you are also changing them to benefit many. Yes, quality wrestlers like Flint will be included, but so will numerous undeserving wrestlers. WE GOT "UNDESERVING WRESTLERS" GOING NOW. LOOK AT HOW STRONG AA/A REGION 1 IS COMPARED TO AA/A REGION 2 Is allowing one or two wrestlers like Flint into the tournament worth having 15 or 20 wrestlers who didn't even win 50% of their matches being there also? YOU ARE FORGETTING ABOUT THE OTHER TOP WRESTLERS IN THE REGIONS FIGHTING FOR THE FOUR SPOTS As soon as we allow JV wrestlers into the tournament the immediate response will be questions raised as to why a JV wrestler who only beat other JV wrestlers and got forfeits to reach his 11-18 record is in the tournament. You can not change this rule and only get good JV wrestlers in as a result. There WILL be bad JV wrestlers at the state tournament. THERE WILL BE BAD WRESTLERS IN THE STATE TOURNAMENT ONCE AGAIN THIS SEASON JUST LIKE LAST SEASON.


NEXT????

[Bearhugger]

its the nature of all games. if the Denver Broncos finish 7-9 but win their division, then they make the playoffs. It doesnt matter if the Cincinnati Bengals finish 10-6 but doesnt win their division or wild card. It is what it is. There has to be some sort of regional or district criteria to making the state tournament......otherwise we'd have a state tournament to get the top 16 so we'd have another state tournament. The fact that some regions are tougher than others is really an avenue that can not be fixed. This year region 1 may be tough, but 3-4 years from now it may be tough in region 7.

We have four regions. Fill the gym with wrestlers. Let the top four identify themselves through wrestling on the mat. Take the top four to the state tournament. If one is a JV kids, then he wrestled, beat the other kids, proved he is better than others, and deserves to go.

[Bearhugger]

I'm not arguing against the possibility of allowing JV wrestlers to qualify for the state tournament, but I am curious how it would change the dynamic within programs. What I mean is: What motivation would a JV wrestler have to become a starter if he gets to qualify and go to the tournament the same as the varsity wrestler? Can he be a letterman,.. or would it mean teams can have unlimited numbers of starters in each weight class without having to designate any as JV, provided they are good enough to qualify? Whose points would count toward team score? Could JV kids who aren't willing to put in the work in their own practice room still reap the rewards? There are a bunch of questions that are unknown about the idea. I do think there should be some uniformity and not the "just let the kids wrestle no matter what" method. Just some points to mull over.

Being a letterman can be decided by the coach. Based on all of the forfeits I see and the top notch wrestlers quitting, we need to find more ways to get kids motivated to stay with the sport. The varsity wrestlers' points go toward the team score. The JV's points can go to his JV's team score. That is how it is done every weekend in every tournament where there is a JV wrestler.

[Bearhugger]

its the nature of all games. if the Denver Broncos finish 7-9 but win their division, then they make the playoffs. It doesnt matter if the Cincinnati Bengals finish 10-6 but doesnt win their division or wild card. It is what it is. There has to be some sort of regional or district criteria to making the state tournament......otherwise we'd have a state tournament to get the top 16 so we'd have another state tournament. The fact that some regions are tougher than others is really an avenue that can not be fixed. This year region 1 may be tough, but 3-4 years from now it may be tough in region 7.

It's not the same thing tho. Allowing JV wrestlers in is essentially allowing the Bengals in with a 10-6 record even though they didn't win the division or earn a Wild Card spot. JV wrestlers did not win the varsity spot on their team, but the suggestion is that they should have the same chances as varsity wrestlers.

I am fine with that as long as people understand the outcome. You can not pick and choose which JV wrestlers get in. By changing the rule to allow 1 or 2 good JV wrestlers in you are also allowing an unknown number of not so great JV wrestlers in. Bearhugger has created several threads discussing the numerous open spots that will exist this year. Who will fill all of those spots? Surely you guys don't think that only good JV wrestlers will fill them.

Wrestling is a sport of where there is a will, there is a way. Have you ever seen a kid ahead by 10 points and then lose because he got pinned? His opponent didn't quit. He had will.

The brainstorming I am reading throughout this entire post shows me there is plenty of will NOT to find the way.

There will be JV wrestlers at the WSAZ next weekend. Lets all watch how the team scores are handled. Lets all watch the JV wrestlers wrestle. Lets see who wins and who loses. Lets see if any VARSITY wrestlers get humiliated. All of the questions being asked, will be answered at the WSAZ. Lets use this new knowledge for the regional tournaments.

[Bearhugger]

It's a can of worms. If the powers that be really want to fix it then go to a single division.
You can still have your A,AA,AAA team champions and you can still have 2 tournaments per region. In actuality you could have 3 per region. Example: 4 regions, 2 sections per region. 2 sectional tournaments, 1 regional tournament and a state tournament.

No can of worms. You put the wrestlers in the room (regions). They wrestle. You take the top four. End of story.

[Bearhugger]

I guess it would come down to what is the objective for the WV state wrestling tourney.?

There's a lot of variables but the original post was regarding a talented JV wrestler that was unfortunately behind an All American varsity guy. I cannot understand why a kid like that which very well could have been the third or second best wrestler in the state not even be there to compete. It's basically the same principle with having the regionals elimate a better wrestler than another less talented wrestler in another region.

I see posts that schools can't fill a full team; forfeits; low number of wrestlers; big schools have advantages;

Put the student athlete first and promote the sport, have some at large bids for state tourney for the deserving wrestlers. Have dual matches for team championship and invitational individual state tourney.. what a week that would be!

For the past 30 to 100 years, we have not put the student athlete first, nor promoted the sport good enough. Now we have a sea of forfeits and byes.

[Bearhugger]

I guess it would come down to what is the objective for the WV state wrestling tourney.?

There's a lot of variables but the original post was regarding a talented JV wrestler that was unfortunately behind an All American varsity guy. I cannot understand why a kid like that which very well could have been the third or second best wrestler in the state not even be there to compete. It's basically the same principle with having the regionals elimate a better wrestler than another less talented wrestler in another region.

I see posts that schools can't fill a full team; forfeits; low number of wrestlers; big schools have advantages;

Put the student athlete first and promote the sport, have some at large bids for state tourney for the deserving wrestlers. Have dual matches for team championship and invitational individual state tourney.. what a week that would be!

These are definitely options as well. An at large bid for the regional would accomplish this. I am not opposed to JV kids being allowed to compete. I am opposed to putting kids in a situation that may humiliate them. Obviously in the case of the 2 106 pounders from EF, they both can compete at a high level, however, as I said in another post, they are the exception and not the rule. Also most schools are not fortunate enough to have depth in their lineups either.

Only the exceptions would qualify from their region and make it to the state tournament. That has been the goal all along.

[vortexfan]

Bearhugger your a very sincere wrestling fan that I enjoy reading your posts. I agree just not as groomed or seasoned to explain it like you. I think you speak for the student athlete (wrestler)

[coach_williams]

It's a can of worms. If the powers that be really want to fix it then go to a single division.
You can still have your A,AA,AAA team champions and you can still have 2 tournaments per region. In actuality you could have 3 per region. Example: 4 regions, 2 sections per region. 2 sectional tournaments, 1 regional tournament and a state tournament.

No can of worms. You put the wrestlers in the room (regions). They wrestle. You take the top four. End of story.

I see no problem with that. I guess I misunderstood your intentions. I have no issue with JV making states if they earn it at regionals.

[Bearhugger]

It's a can of worms. If the powers that be really want to fix it then go to a single division.
You can still have your A,AA,AAA team champions and you can still have 2 tournaments per region. In actuality you could have 3 per region. Example: 4 regions, 2 sections per region. 2 sectional tournaments, 1 regional tournament and a state tournament.

No can of worms. You put the wrestlers in the room (regions). They wrestle. You take the top four. End of story.

I see no problem with that. I guess I misunderstood your intentions. I have no issue with JV making states if they earn it at regionals.

That has been my intention/idea all along.

Regional tournaments: 50 men(and women) enter, four men(women) leave.

[coach_williams]

That has been my intention/idea all along.

Regional tournaments: 50 men(and women) enter, four men(women) leave.

What about team scoring. One scorer per class or all qualifiers are scorer?

Also, make an effort to keep two wrestlers from the same team apart or let the pill decide?

[solidspruce]

This is a very good topic for debate and some very good options have been presented. Another to consider is doing away with 4 automatic bids by region. We all know that all regions aren't equal and they should be treated as such. Strong regions should get more bids while weaker regions get less. Why not take the top 5 or 6 wrestlers out of strong regions while only taking 2-3 from weaker regions? Bids would be determined before regional tournaments every season. In addition I would love to see A/AA/AAA in the same brackets at states. Why not do that and have 32 person brackets instead of two tournaments with 16 person brackets? There would be much more quality from top to bottom and some great matches that we wouldn't normally get to see. WSAZ is the closest we come to this, but not all WV teams compete here. You could still have A/AA/AAA team champions, but the individual titles would be much more significant.

[Frank]

[quote="solidspruce"]This is a very good topic for debate and some very good options have been presented. Another to consider is doing away with 4 automatic bids by region. We all know that all regions aren't equal and they should be treated as such. Strong regions should get more bids while weaker regions get less. Why not take the top 5 or 6 wrestlers out of strong regions while only taking 2-3 from weaker regions? Bids would be determined before regional tournaments every season. In addition I would love to see A/AA/AAA in the same brackets at states. Why not do that and have 32 person brackets instead of two tournaments with 16 person brackets? There would be much more quality from top to bottom and some great matches that we wouldn't normally get to see. WSAZ is the closest we come to this, but not all WV teams compete here. You could still have A/AA/AAA team champions, but the individual titles would be much more
Can I decide which regions are strong and weak

[Bearhugger]

That has been my intention/idea all along.

Regional tournaments: 50 men(and women) enter, four men(women) leave.

What about team scoring. One scorer per class or all qualifiers are scorer?

Also, make an effort to keep two wrestlers from the same team apart or let the pill decide?

1. The team scoring has to be kept separate. Just like how all other tournaments keep team scores. Varsity and JV are separate.

2. In the regional tournament, it would be good to have the varsity in one half and the JV in the opposite half of the brackets. However, to keep this needed change simple, the pill decides who is where in the state tournament.