Has WV wrestling gone downhill as a whole?

[SuperCracker]

Panther Coach is right on and that is for every sport. I'm speaking for the long laid off Jordan who chose to devote all his energy to baseball because his dream is to be on a baseball card and he was rewarded with a scholarship paying all and he came back to wrestling for the absolute LOVE and competition of the sport. Other coaches will fight kids because their first instinct is the kid is going to lose 30 pounds to make weight which is false. Who knows what Jordan would have done if he just concentrated on wrestling but it wasn't his true love. A lot of kids don't know what it takes to be a good wrestler the time the energy the hard work and a bunch of them take the easier route and believe me all other sports are the easier route. I like what Nick Saban and Urban Meyer said they would rather recruit wrestlers as their football players than just football players. But in my opinion there is some great wrestlers in this state and I root for them all when they go out of state because just like baseball we get no respect when we go out of state. But for going downhill I just think we are top heavy in the rankings but some of those kids could beat kids in any era at the right time. All this just my opinion.

[Bearhugger]

The door has opened for two points:

1. When I talk about wrestling in WV going down hill, it is geared toward the lack of participation,thus schools having rosters of 6 to 10 wrestlers. The year round focus is great. The JV wrestlers in the regular tournaments is great.

2. All kids should weight train year round, even during wrestling season. In addition, kids should not be getting so fat and out of shape in the off season. Any wrestler should not have to cut a bunch of weight when the season rolls around. This should satisfy the parents and the football coaches.

There are a few kids I have watched this season that need strength more than anything else right now. One particular kid placed high in the states last season. He is dangerous for almost anybody. However, his overall strength is obviously his number one drawback. He would be better served to go crazy lifting weights in the off season, than learning anymore techniques. However, I am not his coach or his parent. Hopefully somebody will figure it out.

[jofus]

I agree that the depth may be lacking, but I think the top kids are pretty good. But I may be biased. It seems to me that you don't have as many "intermediate" kids as there used to be, but maybe it's just a perception thing.

I also agree that it's somewhat disrespectful to those that work hard year round and wrestle in the offseason, etc., to make a blanket statement such as "downhill as a whole". While I understand the intent, there are a lot of kids that read these forums that may not understand. Just my 2 cents

[dunbar76]

Panther coach has hit the nail on the head.....

[OW88]

Please allow me to rant....

I do not believe wrestling is going down hill in WV. I think the opposite is true. One thing nobody is addressing is the weight class changes. We all know we needed more mid weights but we have to try to make football happy. How many FB coaches turn their kids from this sport?

Let's look at this year...AAA for example...When was the last time in history that you had the amount of talent tied up in 120 thru 132? You could say 145 as well since everyone is steering clear of 138.

Everyone on here who follows WV wrestling knows which kids are talented. They need to jockey for position. I know for a fact, that kids who
"should be lifting in the off season" are having to make a choice between "cutting weight" to be competing on a varsity team or lifting to get bigger and stronger. Tough decision.

Look at the numbers in each weight class entered in nationals. There is a bottle neck. If your bigger and have the balls to go through what wrestlers have to go through then your blessed with an easier road.

A parent of an extremely talented upper weight kid recently posted on this site that his kid is 205-210 and would have to cut to 195?....come on. I know 132 lb/ers who would kill for just a 10 lb cut.

In my opinion, wrestling is on the rise in the country and this state, but the weight classes and school admin backing is the problem.

When was the last time your school dropped the football team off at a game and told the parents to get them home? especially at regional tourney???

[mooreboysdad]

All high school football coaches would see big improvements in their players if they also wrestled. Would improve strength, endurance, balance, cardio, physical TOUGHNESS, mental toughness, work ethic. Marshall coach Doc Holliday was a state wrestling champ. There is no better conditioned athlete than a wrestler in peak form. Wrestling hasn't gone downhill in WV. The successful ones know what it takes to reach the top and really work for it. We must remember that we have a much smaller number of kids (athletes) than Ohio, PA and others, consequently those states usually have higher number of elite wrestlers. The elite WV kids can hold their own against them. The kids that are not quite as accomplished must make up their own minds to work harder. I know that it helps for kids to see first hand what being successful "costs". Here in Roane Co it was huge for Cam, Cole, Riley, my nephew Sam and others to grow up in same practice room as Dylan Cottrell, Josh Fisher, Sam Whiting, Brad Hickman. Also off season work with Biciak, Jake Martin, David Jefferies and many others. Thanks to all those guys. Success breeds success. WV proud!!!

[OW88]

Amen. I wish every football coach understood what he could gain by having his players wrestle.

Unfortunately, the kids who want to excel at football don't have to find someone to pay for out of state camps or haul the kids to Ohio or PA for off-season training or tournaments to get better.

My point is that there wasn't as much competition between sports in years past as there is now. Wrestling wasn't looked down upon by football and Admin in the past as it is now.

I understand that the best will find the workout partners...but not every sport has to hunt support like wrestlers do. We all know wrestlers are a different breed of kid. It's understood. But, as Panther Coach will, I'm sure agree with,,,football doesn't need someone to build a training facility in someone's garage in order for the kids to get the training they need to compete and succeed.

The school system and Admins have went out of there way to make football, basketball, baseball. etc. cool and wrestling NOT. Plain and simple.

Heck, most wrestling teams hunt for the toughest competition they can find to improve the kids that are tough enough to chose to wrestle while football teams beg to get out of the tough conferences so the can schedule easier competition and celebrate a winning season.

The problem is in the culture we instill in our kids,,,and it starts with each of us. No matter if you like South or Parkersburg, or hate them both, you can't argue with the fact that they have made wrestling and wrestlers cool for kids. It's about the culture, not video games.

[CCHS#2]

Henson is a good wrestler but there is no way he could have handled the physicality of matt easter he was a stud 119 and brandon rader would destroy anyone in the state at 132 or 138 and probably 145.

[Bearhugger]

Schenerlein of Parkersburg, class of 82 would have crushed probably anybody these days from 160 to 220.

[aaacoach2]

I would guess there are more "elite" wrestlers in WV than "elite" football players. At least the wrestlers know where they stand in comparison to national level guys

[gnat]

how many wrestling fans does it take to change a light bulb? None they just sit back and talk about how good the old one was.

[washedupwrestler]

how many wrestling fans does it take to change a light bulb? None they just sit back and talk about how good the old one was.

When wrestlers whom are placing top 5 in the state don't know how to setup a basic attack from the feet, there's no argument the talent level has gone way down.

[Bucktail]

gnat wrote:
how many wrestling fans does it take to change a light bulb? None they just sit back and talk about how good the old one was.

"When wrestlers whom are placing top 5 in the state don't know how to setup a basic attack from the feet, there's no argument the talent level has gone way down."

I think you are making two different points. Not knowing how to set up a shot is coaching decline. Not being able to set up and execute a shot is a wrestling decline.

[washedupwrestler]

gnat wrote:
how many wrestling fans does it take to change a light bulb? None they just sit back and talk about how good the old one was.

"When wrestlers whom are placing top 5 in the state don't know how to setup a basic attack from the feet, there's no argument the talent level has gone way down."

I think you are making two different points. Not knowing how to set up a shot is coaching decline. Not being able to set up and execute a shot is a wrestling decline.

You're completely right. Maybe lazy coaches is part of the issue.

[aacoach70]

I think some people need something to talk about that actually has some substance. This weather has brought on some cabin fever maybe. It's a bit of an over-reaction to say that top 5 state placewinners don't know the basics. You don't get that far by dumb luck. Wrestling has changed over the years. In my opinion it has gone from a more physical simplistic combat style to a more finesse style. There is more technique used today to score with tilts, etc. I do think some of the physicality is gone, but some of that comes from how rules have evolved and the level of roughness that is tolerated by officials according to today's standards. No purpose is served by naming bad dudes from the past and comparing them to current wrestlers. It's really hard to say how some of those bouts would end. Today's wrestler wrestling in an earlier era might have to be more rough and tough. The past generation wrestler might be outscored by the funky style techniques so many use now. As far as team rosters and participation, one only needs to look at some of the early duals archived here from the 80's and 90's to see that, even then, it was common to see up to six forfeits in those matches. Some people are lazy. Some wrestlers are lazy. Perhaps some coaches are lazy, but it would be pretty sad to coach a team and not care about getting better, teaching better technique, finding satisfaction from kids succeeding,.. because we aren't in it for the money or fame. I can't say for sure that the quality of wrestling has declined, but I think it looks different.

[Panther_coach]

Very good point aacoach70. You provided an insight I had not considered. Case in point, I remember back about 1994-95 or there abouts I took some of my kids to a camp in upstate PA.(Russ Houck camp now run by Gene Mills as Pin2Win camp in Estella outside Williamsport.) There was a technician there from the Soviet Union Sergei Belagazov(sp?)who taught extensively on tilts and leg turns. My kids loved the style and brought it back with us. For a few years, we "made hay" with these moves because very few middle schools were wrestling that way around here. Most teams were what I called "Cowboy and half" teams. Then everyone else figured it out as well ( not just from us, of course). Wrestling evolved and now 5 year olds are doing tilts and leg turns. You can neither coach nor wrestle the way teams did 20 years ago and still be successful, the paradigm has indeed shifted. The hard nosed, brutal style of eariler years has been passe' and the funky, slick technique is king. You are right, it just looks different, the rules have changed as well, for example, many guys who ran a 1/2 and chicken wing or two wings would figure four the head - this and many other pinning combos are now illegal. Stalling and overtime have changed, etc. It not only looks different, it is different.

[HolyHighCrotch]

Panther coach, January 23 at 1039 an in this post JW said the same thing and was told he missed the premise of the post. Said in an extremely expanded version there is somebody agreeing.

Different era, different rules, no decline in talent.

[Panther_coach]

I think it's a little of both ...

[Frank]

For an example right out of the gene pool, I wrestled in high school, my son now wrestles in high school. If it were possible for he and I to wrestle each other being in high school. He would wear me out. Doubt if I'd see the second period in a wrestling match. His technique at this point in his career is so much higher then mine ever was. But you let me fight him, I'd beat that a$$ all the way up 64 thru big sandy and back. Just evolution I guess. Or maybe that's how most of us dads feel.

[guard0544]

I think a bar, half etc are too often get dismissed as being lower level skills. Subtle differences in technique can turn a move that will only work on average wrestlers into one that will work on most. A move is only as skilled as the manner in which it is executed. Subtle differences. Just not sold on the 'slick' moves being more skilled or effective

[Bearhugger]

I think a bar, half etc are too often get dismissed as being lower level skills. Subtle differences in technique can turn a move that will only work on average wrestlers into one that will work on most. A move is only as skilled as the manner in which it is executed. Subtle differences. Just not sold on the 'slick' moves being more skilled or effective

I agree. There are certain techniques that are considered "desperation" by most. However, some wrestlers are so skilled with these techniques, their opponents fear them.

[Bucktail]

I agree its different. I think the referees are more willing to call potentially dangerous as well. I wrestled in PA, where your arm could be ripped off and there was no potentially dangerous call, if your opponent was good enough to crank it and it hurt that bad, submit by exposing you back. I have seen potentially dangerous called on a half nelson at the state tournament last year and again at OVACs this year. It is mind-boggling to me, but I saw it happen. Now, go to a pa dual and you will see those boys able to crank and still possess some of that grit from the past. My point, wrestling has changed to slick technique and there are several different factors that have played a role in bringing about the different style. I don't blame any referees, they have the responsibility to protect the wrestlers on the mat, but I think the culture is a little different. I think the overall coaching level is high, but the coaches have to be invested to keep learning all of developments and adjust their styles too. I don't see any lazy coaches, they are passionate enough to take on a job where they earn about $.20 per hour.

[Frank]

Bucktail, if your post had a like button on it I would click it.

[coach_williams]

Somebody already said this, but I am going to reiterate it. Coaches of other sports either do not promote their athletes wrestling or they actually inhibit or even forbid it. I have personally witnessed this. I know it is fact. It is wrong. A great example of a school system that promotes wrestling is Western Greenbrier MS and Greenbrier West HS. They actively promote the sport and expect their football players to wrestle and their wrestlers to play football. Both sports benefit from this mentality.

Also, I have seen a trend that I wonder if others have noticed. Some wrestlers peak early and then lose interest. How many Jr State champions go on to be high school state champs? Some do, but not a large number of them. In our wrestling room at EGMS/GEHS we have pictures of our youth league wrestlers that won state championships on the wall. One day the head coach and I were discussing how every single one of them was out of wrestling somewhere between middle school and the 2nd year of high school.

[mattman]

Gotta agree with a few guys on here. Brandon Radar was as tough as they come with Regalbuto, the Easters, Mitch Smith all right there along side him. Still some damn tough kids these days also

[Bearhugger]

Coach Williams, you are on point.

If one looks at this season's list of returning underclassmen, there are a significant list of wrestlers who are obviously NOT wrestling this season.

We have state place winners from last season that are not appearing in the results and/or rankings section.

There are at least TWO runner ups and a 5th place winner that are not wrestling. There are at least two kids that should have placed last season that are not wrestling this year.

[Bearhugger]

There is at least one school that still exercises a "tough" style of wrestling. When I see them wrestle, I rarely see tilts. I never see a kid wrestling from his knees.

I see toughness in working for the take down. I see toughness working to defend the takedown. I see toughness when working to turn the opponent and I see toughness when working off the bottom.

This bunch doesn't get tired. When one of them loses, he just got beat. They don't beat themselves.

This might be a big reason why they are doing as good as they are.