JV Wrestlers

[Bearhugger]

At a glance, it looks like Cabell Midland has a few JV wrestlers that are shaking up the Pat Vance Tournament.

One JV guy took out a state tournament qualifier from last season. Another JV guy knocked off a #1 seed.

There has been a lot of talk lately about the pill forcing the two best wrestlers to wrestle in the earlier rounds of the state tournament. In addition, there has been dialogue regarding "top ten" wrestlers not qualifying for the state tournament.

All valid points.

However, the real injustice is B team wrestlers not getting a CHANCE to qualify for the state tournament.

There have been many great wrestlers who are behind the eventual state champion.

I am sure many kids who quit wrestling might have stuck it out if they knew they had a chance of qualifying for the state tournament and maybe, just maybe......could place.

It would be wild if a varsity wrestler met a B team wrestler in the state finals.

It would be incredible if a team qualified 3 to 4 wrestlers in the SAME weight class for the state tournament.

If a B team kid is good enough to take out other team's varsity wrestler in the regional tournament, then we truly are getting the BEST wrestlers into the state tournament.

[guard0544]

My biggest objection to allowing JV wrestlers into the tournament would be the impact it would have on team scoring. And, we must keep in mind the idea of representing your team (your school), and there only being so many weight classes...and so many teams.

1. The JV wrestlers would be taking the place of wrestlers from other teams that would have otherwise qualified for states and potentially have scored team points at the state tournament. So, allowing JV wrestlers is detrimental to other teams ability to win a team championship. Perhaps Parkersburg doesnt qualify as many for states because a couple South JV wrestlers take the spot of a couple of the Pburg varsity wrestlers (just an example).

2. The JV wrestlers could be manipulated at the state tournament to benefit the varsity teams scoring. What if the varsity and JV wrestler meet in the quarter-finals? The team race is tight and they know they have a great chance to win the team championship if the varsity wrestler defeats the JV wrestler (and even more so if he does so by pin) and is guaranteed a top 6 placement. Maybe they would simply wrestle and let the cards fall where they may. But maybe the JV wrestler feels pressured to allow the varsity wrestler to defeat him...maybe pin him in the end...so the team can secure the team championship? Or simply every time a JV vs. Varsity...if it clear near the end of the match the JV is going to lose, they know to let the Varsity get a fall at that point, to score more team points. It opens up the possibility of such things occurring.

[Bearhugger]

Guard, your points are valid and I am not challenging them. However, WV wrestling is becoming a sport where few schools have full rosters.

It is becoming more and more individual rather than team. Many team duals are a joke with all of the forfeits. I bet the refs like these paydays for less time.

I saw some South kids wrestle their B team mates at the WSAZ last year and they were not laying down. The varsity kids won by 1 point. The B teamers did place, thus knocking out many lesser wrestlers from getting team points for their teams. However, what is the difference in placing 27th vs 28th out of 30 teams?

If a wrestler is good enough to qualify for the state tournament and he is good enough to place or even win the state tournament, then he should not be afraid of a B team wrestler getting in his path at the state tournament. His coaches should not be afraid either.

In reality, there would probably be very few B teamers qualify for the state tournament.

Varsity wrestlers (from Schools A, Q and Z) who lose in the regions to B teamers (from Schools G and S) probably would not be helping their team at the state tournament anyway.

When a given weight class in a given region only has four wrestlers, then the qualification process becomes a joke. All a kid has to do is make weight and not get injured.

A question for all....................

Has anybody ever witnessed where a team won a tournament because they had a B teamer allow himself to get pinned by the Varsity wrestler?

Challenge for all.................

Pay attention to all of the JV wrestlers who beat Varsity wrestlers (of other schools) throughout the season. Then watch for these same varsity wrestlers to qualify for the state tournament.

As stated above, C-M's JV is doing it this weekend.

[Panther_coach]

To answer your question, Bearhugger, no, but I have had the reverse happen twice. My Milton teams actually lost two events over the years because my JV guys beat my varsity guys. I just looked at it as the Old Coach had the wrong guy starting. Our mantra was always to do everything we could to make our worst wrestler pretty damn good! I also had a JV kid who went 10-0 at the Clash and finish 3rd at WSAZ ( Varsity guy got 1st). I have had many times when my varsity and JV kids met in the finals of tournaments. I also once had my two teams wrestle each other in the finals of a team duals event. In our county we have always let all JV kids wrestle in the conference tournament. If the two best wrestlers happen to be from the same school the WRESTLERS deserve to meet in the finals. I know of a situation where your JV kids can enter but have to be on the same side of the bracket as your starter to ensure two different schools meet in the finals - this old coach thinks that is just wrong. As for not having full teams, I find that to be appaling. We actually cut kids due to having only one mat, but kept 36-38 kids each year - two full teams plus several tweeners who could fill either weight class. You make some good points though!

[Bearhugger]

Panther_coach, when I logged on just now, I saw that you had responded.

I prepared for a wise and informative response, despite not knowing which direction you would be going in.

It sounds like you had a middle school dynasty at one time. When the JV kids cost you the championships, that speaks louder volumes than winning the championship. Your priorities were to make all wrestlers good versus winning all team championships.

The parents knew what a good coach you were and that their kids would get to wrestle, despite being on the B team. This is probably why you had so many wrestlers that you had to cut kids.

I talk to parents. I hear stories about them going to a football game to only watch their kid stand on the sidelines the entire night. It might be raining, cold, etc but the parents are there. The parents do not want to blow off the game because when they do, their son might get to play.

I suspect after going through 10 weeks of this, parents may not encourage their sons to then go out for wrestling.

The parents get worn out.

The future of WV wrestling is not team based. It is individual based. To save the sport, you need to get the individuals out for the sport, get them matches and GIVE THEM SOMETHING TO LOOK FORWARD TO AT THE END OF THE SEASON. Getting to wrestle in the regional, having the opportunity to qualify and even place in the state tournament (because they are behind the returning state champion).

What is a coach supposed to tell his team of only eight wrestlers? Well guys, we won't be contending for any team titles but, all seven of you can still be champions. Seven? With eight wrestlers? Yes, there is a very good wrestler who is surrounded by studs near all of his potential weight classes.

What is the coach suppose to tell this kid? Son, stick it out and be a sparring partner for these guys who will be winning gold. Nobody will know you or what you did in practice to help these teammates. Maybe, just maybe, you might make varsity next year if all of you spread out weight wise.

The best answer is: Son, you may not be varsity now, but you are wrestling this weekend. Also, you get to enter the regional tournament and WRESTLE your way to qualify for the state tournament.

The varsity kid wins it all, the B teamer places 6th, maybe 5th. Heck, maybe 2nd.

Who wins? The two best wrestlers in the given weight class.

As for the varsity opponents who lost to the B teamer, they were not good enough. They didn't deserve to place. They lost on the mat.

[Panther_coach]

The key to being able to do what we did was a supportive administration and great parents. We often sent our Varsity and JV squads to different tournaments on the same weekend, thus requiring two entry fees instead of one. Our administration ponied up the money for this without a problem. I know of schools whose principal will only pay for one event a year, leaving the teams to seek out a few tris or quads to fill out their schedule. I always tried to get my kids into events where they would get as many matches as possible (Ex. The Clash, WV Duals, Big Ben Duals, etc. where they got 10 matches per weekend win or lose) because kids are not stupid ... Why work your tail off in practice if you don't get to use what you are learning. My parents were wonderful, we travelled pretty extensively for a middle school team, wrestling in OH, KY, PA and all over WV. This was a financial and time consuming prospect for our parents but they were always ready to go and became like a big family, transporting, housing and feeding kids whose parents could not go or kids who had no one to take them. As a result, many of my kids got in 50+ matches while staying within our 14 weigh ins. Of course, in bracket tournaments they had to win some to get that many matches in. No one, Varsity, JV or extras ever wrestled less than 30 a year unless injured and most got forty or more. Over the course of their career, just the experience on the mat, seeing different styles by travelling, etc. made them pretty good if they stuck it out. If you look at teams like South, Midland, Huntington, etc. that are near the top of the rankings, they all have active and viable JV teams - those kids through the experience they gain may be next years stars. But whether they are great or mediocre, if they love the sport enough to do all it entails, they deserve the oppoutunity to wrestle as much as possible.

[Bearhugger]

I understand the value of the parents' involvement.

In today's wrestling world, it comes down to basic math.

If a tight wad principle will only pay for 1 to 2 events, he in theory is paying for 14 wrestlers (FULL ROSTER). MOST teams do not have full rosters.

If the starting line up is 8 strong, then 6 B teamers should get to go and the money is provided.

Also, I read where tournament entry fees have a charge for the team and an additional charge for the B team.

The initial charge could and should cover 14 wrestlers, whether A or A & B combined.

Back to the math again. We have kids qualifying for the state tournament because there is ONLY 4 wrestlers in their weight class. We have all voiced our concerns about regions not even having 4 wrestlers in a given weight class.

Throwing B, C, and even Z teams into the region will correct this.

Back to my Cabell-Midland JV kid I was talking about somewhere who beat a state tournament qualifying at the Pat Vance. I looked up the state qualifier in last season's region. He placed 4th out of only 4. he went to the state tournament. Good for him. A year later, he is losing to a JV kid. Maybe he will qualify for the state again this season while the CM JV kid stays home. What is fair? The better question is what makes the state tournament more legitimate?

[Amandaj96]

Jv over all I've witnessed several schools several Jv wrestlers who give there all go tournament After tournament match After. match and not get to wrestle make more Jv tournaments then how will they ever improve if not able to get experience

[dunbar76]

This conversation comes up every year. I’ve always supported jv’s participating in the regionals. They do not have to score points. I get that that screws things up a bit, but what is more important, points or getting deserving kids a shot? My jr. year I wrestled behind a varsity undefeated wrestler. I did get in 10 varsity matches that year while he was injured and did earn my letter. As the rules are, I did not participate in the regionals. My undefeated mate won the regionals. I had beaten the 4th placer earlier. That year only 1st and 2nd place qualified for the states. LOL, I’m old.!!!